tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post8173606532538812649..comments2024-03-05T10:34:30.182-05:00Comments on The Marlowe-Shakespeare Connection: The Death of Christopher Marlowe?Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger14125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-45525731799588152882011-08-23T03:30:20.179-04:002011-08-23T03:30:20.179-04:00What if...Marlowe was staying with the widow Bull ...What if...Marlowe was staying with the widow Bull as she was trusted,a kinswoman of Blanche Parry,who was related to Dr. Dee and the Queen's lifelong confidante and also lived within the verge, the court being then at Greenwich. What if... Marlowe spoke too freely about secret matters and his answers implicated the Privy Council themselves ( Robt.Persons had already accused them all of being atheists). What if the Privy Council wanted to get him away and he refused to go? What if the three men, each answering to a different chief,were there to keep the others honest. They visited Marlowe by arrangement that day and spent the day getting him drunk, marched him over to somewhere like Sayle Court, put his clothes on a corpse(Penry?) and staged the rest. The reason for the fight? Ms Bull sends up four meals not knowing there are only three who can eat. What happened to the fourth meal? Who pays for it? As for what happened to Marlowe see what Isabel says about the clue in the Shrew when Christopher Sly wakes up.frankhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09928512514965684624noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-52829629690728592632011-04-28T18:05:01.311-04:002011-04-28T18:05:01.311-04:00Peter,
Thank you for that explanation.Peter,<br /><br />Thank you for that explanation.marinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03435598676103731157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-78765404056443505492011-04-25T00:52:58.261-04:002011-04-25T00:52:58.261-04:00I'm afraid that it is one of those Marlovian m...I'm afraid that it is one of those Marlovian myths that there is anything special about the way this was dealt with by the queen. <br /><br />Hotson translates the words at the end of Ingram Frizer's pardon as "We therefore moved by piety have pardoned the same Ingram ffrisar the breach of our peace which pertains to us against the said Ingram for the death above mentioned & grant to him our firm peace. Provided nevertheless that the right remain in our Court if anyone should wish to complain of him concerning the death above mentioned In testimony &c Witness the Queen at Kewe on the 28th day of June." <br /><br />The "Provided nevertheless..." bit is the one that has been wrongly taken to imply some special lid being placed on it by the queen but this is in fact entirely standard wording as drafted by some clerk. <br /><br />The original Latin for that sentence was <i>Ita tamen quod stet rectum in Curia nostra siquis versus eum loqui voluerit de morte supradicta</i> and Thomas Watson's pardon for the killing of William Bradley, for example, has virtually identical wording. What's more, the pardon of Thomas Walsingham for 'outlawry' (debt) differs from this only in terms of the offence itself, but the "Provided nevertheless that the jurisdiction remain in our court" bit is still included.<br /><br />PeterPeter Fareynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-65934757724472157962011-04-24T18:50:17.382-04:002011-04-24T18:50:17.382-04:00I read at some point that Queen Elizabeth sealed D...I read at some point that Queen Elizabeth sealed Danby's report when she received it, and decreed that no one would further investigate Marlowe's "death" without her personal permission.<br /><br />Do I have that wrong?marinerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03435598676103731157noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-46267618115090114612011-04-10T10:47:29.566-04:002011-04-10T10:47:29.566-04:00awesome blog!!!!!!!!!!awesome blog!!!!!!!!!!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-28099713551589617762011-04-07T17:24:06.275-04:002011-04-07T17:24:06.275-04:00Peter, thanks for your clarification. I agree, the...Peter, thanks for your clarification. I agree, the four of them having spent all day there does make the murder scenario less likely. Aside from this, it seems to me that the strongest factor against the murder theory is that (as you rightly point out) there would be much easier ways to kill Marlowe, if that was all that was required. If we accept that there is something fishy about the story given in the coroner's inquisition (as Nicholl and others do, an increasing number of people since Hotson's 1925 discovery of the document), it seems that an important part of the plan was for Marlowe's death to have been witnessed - hence the need for the two others' presence. Thus it is essential for there to be no question that he really died in the manner described. Why require such elaborate proof that he died, if he really did?<br /><br />Your remarks about rigor mortis are interesting - your following thoughts notwithstanding. I suppose one advantage of the 'stabbing' occuring in the evening is that that way, the inquest could not have occurred until the following day. If Eleanor Bull had raised the 'hue and cry' at an earlier time of day, it would have increased the risk of witnesses viewing the body that same day. Presumably there are some readily apparent differences between a body that's just been killed, and a one-day-old body.<br /><br />By the way, I like <a href="http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/sudden.htm#77" rel="nofollow">your description</a> of a possible scenario in which this all could have played out, I think it's very useful in visualising how such a plan might have been achieved. Yes, it's clear that it would be important for Danby to be on the scene pretty quickly.<br /><br />I'm still curious about the lengthy description of the day's events, given by Danby in the inquest document. One thought I had is that perhaps the detail of them walking around in the garden might be corroborated by further witnesses, if need be? I don't know.<br /><br />Again, you do <a href="http://www2.prestel.co.uk/rey/sudden.htm#19" rel="nofollow">point this out</a> (quoting Samuel Tannenbaum), but I think it's worth drawing attention to the (rather important!) fact that it's not really possible to cause instant death through a stab wound to the eye. Particularly a stab wound of two inches in depth, as described by Danby. This is illustrated by, e.g. the case of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage" rel="nofollow">Phineas Gage</a>, an American railroad worker who survived having a large iron rod driven all the way through the front part of his head (scroll down on that link to see a drawing of Gage's skull, with the path of the bar through it). Basically, an injury to the front part of the brain is equivalent to a partial frontal lobotomy, and does not cause instant death. In many cases (such as Gage's), it doesn't cause death at all, or even loss of consciousness. It would be good to have a forensic pathologist's opinion on this, but that's my understanding. Given that this is the case, it would not be possible for Marlowe to have died in the manner described by Danby. This fact alone casts very serious doubt on Danby's truthfulness in his description of the state of the body, and implicates him in a probable cover up.Dan Sayersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-89906530363511910212011-04-07T07:47:14.920-04:002011-04-07T07:47:14.920-04:00Dan, thank you for the kind words. I'm so plea...Dan, thank you for the kind words. I'm so pleased that you find my contributions interesting.<br /><br />For me, there are really two main considerations about the the question of them being there all day. <br /><br />The first is that I have used it as one of the arguments against it having just been a deliberate murder, which could presumably have been carried out just as easily after lunch if they intended to use much the same story. The longer they waited, the more chance there would be of something unexpected happening to make it either go wrong or become impossible.<br /><br />The second is less an argument for the faked death as such, but something we need to explain for the faked death story to be plausible. I was tempted at one time to think that <i>rigor mortis</i> in the intended victim needed to wear off before anyone could be allowed near the body. If Penry, for example, had been hanged at 6 p.m. on the Tuesday the condition would have started with a stiffening in the neck and jaw by midnight, and the body completely stiff by 6 o'clock on the morning of the meeting. The rigor would start to go at around midday, and continue to reduce throughout the rest of the day until being completely gone late on the Wednesday evening.<br /><br />On the other hand, if the body of a hanged man is to be used, there are more important reasons for making sure that nobody gets near enough to the body to see the physical effects of that, particularly on the neck, so I'm more inclined to see the critical path depending upon just when Danby can be there on the Wednesday to take charge and make sure that the whole 'murder scene' is sealed off.<br /><br />In the essay "Marlowe's Sudden and Fearful End" on my website, I create a scenario in which Eleanor Bull reports the killing to her late husband's boss, the Lord of the Manor, only to 'find' (as was of course prearranged) that Danby just happens to have popped in for a visit there on his way home from Nonsuch, allowing him to take charge straight away. They therefore had to wait for some indication of Danby's arrival. <br /><br />If Danby had been a county coroner as well as being the Queen's however, as I now suspect, then it might have simply depended upon whatever else he had on his plate, and how soon he would be able to attend. However, the shorter the time between the alleged killing and his arrival to take over presumably the better?<br /><br />PeterPeter Fareynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-47242571791610204642011-04-07T06:06:30.668-04:002011-04-07T06:06:30.668-04:00First Peter, congratulations on this and all your ...First Peter, congratulations on this and all your excellent research on Marlowe. I always know something by you will be well-founded and rational, as well as highly interesting. In some cases, such as your deciphering of the Stratford Monument, completely fascinating.<br /><br />I have one question. Having read your various articles regarding the events at Deptford, you seem to suggest that the faking of Marlowe's death would explain why these characters would have spent all day at Eleanor Bull's house. However, I can't see where you explain this. Sorry if I'm missing something obvious - why would the meeting have had to last all day? Thanks!Dan Sayersnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-72459457660339735532011-04-05T13:58:25.734-04:002011-04-05T13:58:25.734-04:00The account of Marlowe's "death" is ...The account of Marlowe's "death" is absurd. We are told that Marlowe is lying down, and Frizer is sitting with his back to him. Marlowe might have been able to grab Frizer's knife while lying down, but in order to deliver two blows to Frizer's head, Marlowe would have had to be standing. Likewise, Frizer would have had to stand up in order to have gotten the knife away from Marlowe. So there must have been a fairly large space between the bed and the table, yet we are told that Frizer could not get away to avoid the attack. In addition, why would Marlowe attempt to stab Frizer in the head, and, if he did, why were Frizer's wounds nothing but minor scratches? If I were angry enough to grab someone's dagger and try to kill him, and he had his back to me, I'd aim for the largest target, i.e., his back, not his head. Why didn't the other two men intervene? Nothing in the coroner's report makes any sense.daver852https://www.blogger.com/profile/06067533090226229731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-37563073349835892462011-04-05T13:50:40.224-04:002011-04-05T13:50:40.224-04:00Ms. Ellen J. wrote:
"Some interesting clues,...Ms. Ellen J. wrote:<br /><br />"Some interesting clues, everyone, are in As You Like It. For example, how did Shakespeare know about "reckoning"?????? How did he get this info when I thought the info regarding the "death" of Marlowe was sealed? (I think)" <br /><br />Yes indeed. This is something which I myself mentioned among the comments on the "The Case Against Oxford as Shakespeare" item. Let's not get too carried away about this though. There is no reason to assume that the details of the inquest wouldn't have been recorded in the Kent archives as they should have been, and therefore available to anyone who had a plausible reason for wanting to see them. It's just that those archives haven't survived. And no, there is nothing suspicious about this. Only a tiny fraction of such records have survived from those days. There is no evidence to suggest that the details were 'sealed' in any way.<br /><br />On the other hand it is certainly interesting that many of the contemporary accounts were so wide of the mark, whereas Shakespeare does seem to have been aware of one specific detail which nobody else writing about it apparently knew.<br /><br />PeterPeter Fareynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-11995420019376430392011-04-05T13:07:04.654-04:002011-04-05T13:07:04.654-04:00Some interesting clues, everyone, are in As You Li...Some interesting clues, everyone, are in As You Like It. For example, how did Shakespeare know about "reckoning"?????? How did he get this info when I thought the info regarding the "death" of Marlowe was sealed? (I think)Ms. Ellen J.noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-28540036877106513442011-04-02T20:35:15.058-04:002011-04-02T20:35:15.058-04:00A room with a few seasoned spies (Marlowe/Poley) a...A room with a few seasoned spies (Marlowe/Poley) and some lesser "liars" and there's a fight over a bill (a reckoning)? Yeah, sure. I can't believe it. <br /><br />Keep up the great work, everyone.DresdenDollnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-10878677769879268372011-03-31T08:37:40.770-04:002011-03-31T08:37:40.770-04:00Mr. Farey is my favorite.Mr. Farey is my favorite.Nokodimisnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-49188651721146917892011-03-30T23:24:46.540-04:002011-03-30T23:24:46.540-04:00This article got my interest. Find myself spendin...This article got my interest. Find myself spending an hour on site. <br /><br />Farey raises excellent points. If you think about it . . . what are all these liars doing in one room???JacksonHnoreply@blogger.com