tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post7397463800334954451..comments2024-03-05T10:34:30.182-05:00Comments on The Marlowe-Shakespeare Connection: Rheims and the Privy Council Note by Peter FareyUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger9125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-57838054175475577452012-03-23T11:37:43.489-04:002012-03-23T11:37:43.489-04:00After reading the entire scene, I'm inclined t...After reading the entire scene, I'm inclined to agree with you, Peter.daver852https://www.blogger.com/profile/06067533090226229731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-13185018811368307312012-03-22T17:28:51.934-04:002012-03-22T17:28:51.934-04:00I don't think so, Dave.
As I see it, Heironi...I don't think so, Dave. <br /><br />As I see it, Heironimo is saying that his play was <i><b>intended</b></i> to be played by gentlemen and scholars, to which Balthasar says that it will now be played by princes and courtiers instead. In other words, as in the case of the trip to Rheims, what was intended has not actually happened.<br /><br />PeterPeter Fareynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-28542565408610181262012-03-22T14:40:11.362-04:002012-03-22T14:40:11.362-04:00I am almost afraid to mention this, but there are ...I am almost afraid to mention this, but there are some lines in Kyd's "The Spanish Tragedy," that could support the alternative interpretation:<br /><br />Hier: It was determined to have been acted,<br />By gentlemen and schollers, too, <br />Such as could tell what to speake.daver852https://www.blogger.com/profile/06067533090226229731noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-67637114351504365662012-03-21T23:51:18.783-04:002012-03-21T23:51:18.783-04:00Peter,
Thank you for the website information.
I ac...Peter,<br />Thank you for the website information.<br />I actually did not intend to go to battle over my suggested possible interpretation! Your interpretation is backed by careful scholarship--while my suggestion is not.<br />I always look forward to your articles.<br /><br />CynthiaCynthia Richardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-41038753735095445632012-03-21T13:22:00.338-04:002012-03-21T13:22:00.338-04:00Cynthia, you said: "It just seemed to me not ...Cynthia, you said: "It just seemed to me not to be necessarily conclusive because of the other possible use of the word 'determined,' and the possibility that the note was hastily written--as reports of what has transpired at meetings often are." <br /> <br />You say that there is another possible use of the word "determined". But I say that I have been unable to find any other meaning for the phrase "was determined to" to mean anything other than that the subject of it had an <i><b>intention</b></i> to do whatever it was. Please give me an example of it meaning what you say it might mean from the days before our grammar became as careless as it is nowadays!<br /> <br />The note doesn't in any case appear to be the "hastily written" report of what happened at a meeting either. Look at Dasent's transcript in "Acts of the Privy Council" at http://www.british-history.ac.uk/source.aspx?pubid=1190&sp=3&pg=140 (and 141) and at the photocopy in Dolly Wraight's "In Search of..." on Cynthia's site at http://www.themarlowestudies.org/book_search_christopher_marlowe.html#page/104/mode/1up. This does not appear to be the minute of a meeting, but the actual words of a certificate which will be signed as such by "Lord Archbishop, Lord Chancelor, Lord Threasurer, Lord Chamberlaine, and Mr. Comptroler."<br /><br />Regardless of this, your comment about the importance of it in terms of Marlowe's relationship with people in power at the top of Elizabethan government is of course right.<br /> <br />PeterPeter Fareynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-4562350403119783162012-03-21T00:40:25.408-04:002012-03-21T00:40:25.408-04:00Peter,
Thanks for your reply to my comment.
I don&...Peter,<br />Thanks for your reply to my comment.<br />I don't find anything wrong with your explanation--which is compelling and obviously very well researched. It just seemed to me not to be necessarily conclusive because of the other possible use of the word "determined," and the possibility that the note was hastily written--as reports of what has transpired at meetings often are. Haste might account for the awkwardness of the phrase "he was determined to have gone . . ." if used in the sense of "it was determined that he went . . ." (I would be interested in knowing more about the context of the note.) <br />However, regardless of what the note tells us or doesn't tell us about Marlowe in relation to Rheims, what I think is most interesting is the last part, where we learn that the Lordships "thought good" to step in and do damage control: evidence that he had friends in high places who saw him as someone worthy of their protection. Perhaps years later some of them may have also "thought good" to help him stage his fake death.<br /><br />--CynthiaCynthia Richardsnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-17384241675339176722012-03-20T03:06:03.138-04:002012-03-20T03:06:03.138-04:00Hello Cynthia,
Thanks for your comment.
You say...Hello Cynthia,<br /><br />Thanks for your comment. <br /><br />You say that you take "was determined" in the sense of "something that has been settled conclusively." But the words are actually "he was determined", and I am unable to find any example of such a phrase having <i><b>ever</b></i> been used in this way. <br /><br />On the other hand, there is a very common meaning for someone "being determined" (i.e. resolved) to do something. And once we see that an intention to <i><b>have</b></i> done something was also a common expression in those days, and implied that it hadn't actually happened, the whole thing makes perfect sense. <br /><br />What is it that you find wrong with this explanation? <br /><br />PeterPeter Fareynoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-56436676956415329082012-03-19T06:28:45.941-04:002012-03-19T06:28:45.941-04:00Well that clears that one up. Well done, PeterWell that clears that one up. Well done, PeterDan Sayershttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10433507331081989452noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6942147318185235475.post-9459602812515212862012-03-19T01:56:32.960-04:002012-03-19T01:56:32.960-04:00Mr. Farey,
As always, very thought provoking work!...Mr. Farey,<br />As always, very thought provoking work! <br />For what it's worth, here's my humble take on the sentence in question: <br />It reads like something taken out of hastily written meeting minutes. The phrase "it was reported" unfortunately does not tell us by whom or to whom. But this report perhaps refers not to a rumor about Christopher Morley, but to a report about him that was presented during a Privy Council meeting. It seems to me that someone had been given the task of reporting back to the Council about what was being said about Morley, perhaps at Corpus Christi. That Morley "was determined to have gone beyond the seas to Rheims . . ." is what that person learned and conveyed to those present at the meeting. <br />I take "was determined" in the sense of "something that has been settled conclusively." So the question arises, settled by whom? Again, the writer is not specific. Perhaps he meant "by the university authorities." They had perhaps heard rumors about Morley that, after a bit of inquiry, they decided ("determined") to be true. If Morley/Marlowe indeed were in Rheims, spying for the Queen, and the Privy Council had been aware of it, it makes a great deal of sense that "their Lordships [the Council members] thought good to certify that he had no such intent" of going to Rheims and remaining. They covered for him by undermining the conclusion (determination) that he was there. This would have been consistent with their protection of him at other points in his life as a spy.<br />--Cynthia RichardsCynthia Richardsnoreply@blogger.com